Any real pro copywriters?

[Laurie Rogers]

Copywriting is one area I really stink! I can write about any subject, in any fashion, but when it comes to the pitch, forget it. And everyone always assumes that because you're a good writer, you can write sales pitches, not true! People as a general rule, have a hard time selling themselves, let alone a product/service. Since I am focusing a lot on media buying and mobile marketing right now, I will probably hire someone to do the "pitching" for my new business, but I have every intention of taking John Carlton's course next year, as I have a passion for learning.

Thanks for the info Rob

[ianlian]

This isn't about "don't trust others".

You just make me be doubtful of any statistic from others. LOL

I saw Mo Latif (one of clickbank gurus?) said one of his launch (Rapid Mass Traffic) did $2.3 million in sales
(in the Auto Mass Traffic JV letter). Let's assume he got only $1 EPC, then that means he had 2.3 million visitors?

Andrew Wallace showed a screenshot of $9.80 per hop from clickbank in his Auto Traffic Monopoly JV invite page.

Did they just make that up?

I prefer to believe that they are doing a great job and making a fortune from clickbank. It amazed me when I saw the clickbank gravity they got, 1200+(Mo Latif's Auto Mass Traffic), 800+(Auto Traffic Monopoly).

Let's forget about the copywriting and the math, @Rob, I thought you never took part in clickbank promotions (just hypothesis), do you believe that someone are making 7 figure or even 8 figure per year from clickbank? That's what I'm aiming to be, a clickbank guru.

Anyway, thanks Rob, for the info you wrote, I really learnt alot form this conversation. I think there are too many things I need to learn before I can do a successful launching.

[Rob Toth]

Of course there are 7 figure CB launches.

And plenty of 8 figure gross revenues info marketers.

As for your "during launch EPC"... $1 would be very low. I've seen $17+ EPCs personally. During a launch, that number can climb a LOT because the weeks or months of anticipation, social proof, and pre-selling means the launch day visitors are mostly pre-sold.

>> Andrew Wallace showed a screenshot of $9.80 per hop from clickbank in his Auto Traffic Monopoly JV invite page.

That's his gross I'm sure... but even if it wasn't, again, I've seen $17+ gross EPC from our own promos and I know other verticals have seen $33+ EPC (and I'm sure others have far surpassed that).

Again, a launch is like a Prometheus attack which, in the most basic terms, is a coordinated attack that is planned in detail and executed in strategic sequences to cripple the system.

Think about it... if I'm trying to fight your army + navy + airforce and I send in 1 soldier, 1 pilot, 1 navy to go battle your guys... I will only moderately annoy you and maybe kill off a few of your troops in the process. (ie: very low conversion).

If instead I plan a coordinated attack where first, all my forces focus on eliminating your airforce... now I have a great chance of winning that battle... next I simulatnously attack using my full army+navy+airforce and target your ground troops, I'll probably win that too and then I go after the rest. (ie: high conversion).

In a launch, the pre-sell emails, the forum buzz, the facebook branding, the contests, the preview calls, the teaser videos, the blog posts all build you up for the main event. Which increases my chances of converting those short-list of interested prospects into sales at a very high conversion.

So yes during a launch, much higher than $1 EPCs are very real.

>> Did they just make that up?

No and that wasn't what I was getting at. A screenshot is "real" from an ethical marketer. But someone writing in their testimonial a generic statement such as "he boosted our conversions 6%!!!" is an empty statement.

It's not about people LYING to you. Just simply you needed to look further into the psychology.

Anyways... by all means take the info as you will. It wasn't to suggest others are lying (as I stated), it was to suggest that this is the land of MARKETING. And an efficient marketer knows how to spotlight the part of the truth that they know the majority will turn into their own perceptions.

[Rob Toth]

Sorry for the benefit of this post (and others who may read it) ... I want to chime in on this 1 thing:

I prefer to believe that they are doing a great job and making a fortune from clickbank.

Ian, I do apologize if what you got out of any of my posts was some sort of naysayer nonsense like "it can't be done", "everyone is lying" etc. That is definitely NOT the case.

But... to further talk about numbers.

Often during a launch for a product that has recurring billing, the reported figures will include a 12-month forecasted sales figure. Meaning if your recurring is $97 and you sell 1000 copies ... that's $100,000 per month. It's not uncommon to have that be reported as a $1.2 million dollar launch.

THAT is reality. Not naysayer or negative. I just happen to have friends in various verticals and we have late night skype conversations, private facebook messages about the real NET REVENUES. Not to mention, I've seen true gross vs true net figures in promotions where I was equity partner and even the ones I launched.

Gross figures and the typical marketing-spin can really make numbers deceptive if you don't know how to interpret them.

Again though, to feed the point of the post I just made before this one... technically reporting a $100,000 month as a $1.2 million dollar launch isn't "lying". It's just plain old marketing. Because they simply spotlight the forecasted number versus the actual revenue.

In addition, on CB products refunds are particularlly high in the marketer-savvy verticals such as forex (where refund rates are typically 30%+) and the IM space where refunds rates are 15-20%. That's not my theory. Ask anyone who has sold at least a couple of hundred units in those markets and see if they don't agree. In many cases, it's 25% refunds simply because too many in the CB world know how to cheat the system.

Furthermore, CB keeps roughly $8 of every $97 purchase (as an example). That's from their 7.5% fees + $1 flat. That's roughly $8.50 if the sale was $97. Well that means 8.5% of the sales are also eaten up.

And, as you probably will note, many CB launches are setup to raise gravity and visibility for the long term benefits. So during launch weeks, affiliates are paid often 60% - 75% commissions of their sales.

And I went to check the 2 examples you referenced, they currently show 60% and 70% commissions respectively. So let's use 65% as the average.

So... let me just plant a seed. Something that can maybe just help anyone reading this consider the full picture.

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Suppose I wanted to go big on a CB launch.

I'd build the product, pages, graphics, pre-launch etc.

I'd invest at least 2 months into this process and probably about $10,000 (when you factor in teaser videos, salescopy, graphics, virtual assistants and more). Not to mention, over those 2 months I've focused on pretty much only this project so there is an "opportunity" lost cost of money that I could have made elsewhere.

So far... into my big launch... I'm 2 months invested and $10,000 down. (Those are conservative and very fair numbers).

If I want to go BIG and I'm SMART... then what I care about is the long term exposure I get in the marketplace. The higher my gravity and the more units sold, the more likely that other CB affiliates will find my offer and promote it for me in the long term... long after the launch buzz is gone.

Launch day comes.

After all is said and done, I have 2000 sales at $97 each. For simplicity, let's call that $200,000 revenue.

Since I want to build confidence in my affiliates, I'll likely use the projected figure of $200k x 12 months = $2.4 million dollar launch. (StomperNet boys did precisely this and so do many others. It's just common practice).

But, in reality, I only had $200,000 come in so far.

Now...

It cost me 65% that I'm paying out to affiliates.

So my aff payouts are : $130,000

Clickbank keeps their 8.5%.

So I lose: $17,000

The whole thing cost me at least $10,000

Oh and I'll definitely see at least 15% refund rate.

So from clawbacks/refunds, I'll lose $30,000 (though the affiliates also don't receive commissions on this, of course).

Just even adding up the percents of what I lose ... that's 65% to affiliates, 8.5% to CB = 73.5% of my gross revenue I never see and, 15% of my total sales I'll never see. And that's real numbers. By no means "alarmist" or negative nonsense. Just legit math.).

In this very real-to-life scenario, my $200,000 in revenues for my AT LEAST 2 months of work and effort pays out like this...

$200,000 x 15% full refunds = $30,000
$170,000 x 73.5% that I never see (due to aff comms and CB fees) = $124,950

So ...

$170,000 - $124,950 = $45,050 actual pay day.

Since I didn't work on much else during my 2 months building this, it's only fair to properly count that net as $22,525 per month for all my efforts. (And I won't calculate it further but you'll find a lot of the launches are a partnership between 2 marketers which means you need to split that even further to a net of roughly $11k per month per person).

** Again, I don't want to kill your dreams nor suggest that there isn't big money being made, but everything I stated is real. the 65% affiliate commissions is real (many launches even pay 75%); the 8.5% you lose to CB as a merchant is very real; the 15% refund rate is much too real (in fact, many merchant will tell you 25% can be expected). And there IS a time-cost and "opportunity lost" cost associated with every launch.



Let me paint a picture using a very big name marketer who I know very well. I won't name him and it's irrelevant either way but I just want to have you (the reader) consider the real numbers.

He built a promotion across 8 months. It wasn't full time especially on his part, but it did take up 8 months worth of part-time focus.

His outsourcing bill (various pro videos, tech work, salescopy, teaser content development) was $100,000.

He had a lot of muscle behind it and they launched and sold $600,000. That is NOT the typical "12-month forecast" numbers. That's actual $600k revenue.

However, he was paying 60%.

I don't know his refunds rates but based on the price point, it was at least 5%. Probably 15%+ but let's use 5%.

I won't even factor merchant fees etc.

But his real numbers were:

$600,000 x 5% refunds = $570,000 gross
$570,000 x 60% aff comms leaves him with = $228,000
(again I'm being very conservative with refunds and haven't even factored merchant fees etc).
From $228,000 he invested $100,000 to put it together.
So his payday, after 8 months of work is $128,000

Not bad at all... but the above was a BIG success. Not record breaking mind you. But that $128,000 NET payday was from a VERY successful promotion.

So always consider how the numbers REALLY unfold for the lesser promotions.

[Rob Toth]

While I don't know the specifics of your particularly chosen examples, the process and numbers are very much real life. So yes, that's how a $2.4 million dollar launch actually can equal roughly $22k for 2 months worth of work (for 2 CB partners). Not bad... but $11k per month of work is very different picture than the $2.4 mil that many interpret.

OH and in the off chance that the merchants in your example did NOT use 12 month projections and they did in fact close $2.3 mill in actual revenue (which I seriously doubt and I say that with respect), even then... when you tear apart the numbers, their payday would be in the $200k range. THAT of course is a great payday but still not $2.3 mill. Again though, I'm pretty sure projected figures were used as that's just become started practice with launches that have recurring billing.

[ianlian]

As a newbie making $3k~$4k per month with CB promotions, I was hoping to make at least $200k with the a launch which would be invested lest than $40k.

After all these analytics, You make me realized that my hopes were but vain.

I saw your another topic "how to get credibility, leads, name exposure and product sales VERY fast".

I will try the method of "YOU will get ownership, I'll simply be introduced as co-creator and you walk with 90% of sales but I get access to the leads that opt-in for this."

What a bright thought!

@Rob, you broke my hopes, but you make me see through the reality. Thanks Rob, and happy new year!

[Rob Toth]

>> @Rob, you broke my hopes,

Not sure if I can accept a thanks for breaking hopes.

I never want to be part of the energy sucking, negative, naysayer crowd.

There's big money being made in a lot of places. There are indeed folks NETTING 5-figures PER DAY or Six figures PER WEEK. That's net.

There's nothing stopping you from building a ridiculously profitable empire.

I simply wanted to shed light onto some of the numbers that don't get talked about. But definitely not aiming to "break your hope".

I for one, just appreciate accurate discussions of the big numbers.

And it's also why individuals like John Reese gained so much popularity... when he had his "million dollar day", he then released a report detailing how it took him 9 months (??) to put that promotion together and MANY hours and I think affiliates of that launch can attest that 70% commissions were being paid out.

So his "million dollar day" was definitely not a one day event. It was nearly a one year build. And it definitely wasn't a million NET in his pocket. Much much less. I think in the report (I haven't read it for years now) he even talks of how it was closer to 10% as net. And even if he doesn't talk of it, that would make sense given the up front investment costs, the physical product fullfilment costs, the high affiliate commission payouts etc.

BUT... he was up front and direct about the numbers. And for that I respected him. AND he then also confirmed that in the first WEEK of promotions he DID *net* 7-figures.

Point is, I see more value in being transparent and catering to the intelligence of an individual.

best of the new year to you too!!

[rayjohnson]

Hi Rob

Just have to drop this post to sum up what I thought was superb honesty and inegrity from you!

Any chance of writing me a salesletter?

Regards

Ray

[Rob Toth]

Hey Ray, thanks for the kudos.

I no longer write salesletters myself but I'm living in Malta right now with top copywriter Trevor Crook. If you need someone who is really pro.... I can get you connected. Probably even grab you a discount of sorts. But it wouldn't come cheap.

Regardless... all the best!

[Rob Toth]

Adding on to the talk of conversions...

Mike just sent out a JV Notify announcement that had this news:

A Word From Mike

Congrats To Alen Sultanic + Matt Bacak ... And The Fellow
JVNotifyPro Partners That Helped Make Their Mass Money
Makers Launch A Multiple Time CB Record Breaker.

CB Record 2013.24 Gravity, Over 20 Thousand Front
End Sales, Most First Day Sales, 7551 Affiliates Made At
Least One Sale, Over 2,734,631 Unique Visitors + The List
Goes On ... But They Couldn't Have Done It Without YOU.

This isn't the first CB record breaker I've been a part of
by a long shot, but it certainly is the biggest to date.

Check Out The Original JV Announcement ...

http://www.jvnotifypro.com/community...ic,5937.0.html

A Tip Of The Hat ... To All Involved.

First, I'd like to echo that... a big congrats to both Matt and Alen. Very well done!

There's a reason why both of them are powerhouse marketers so them teaming up and creating this result is no surprise. But I don't doubt it took a LOT of hours and work on their end. Tremendous job!

But ... take a look at the conversions.

This is just simply to highlight how even a mega success, a record breaking launch doesn't receive the often touted 6%, 8%+ conversions. Those are isolated best-case conversions at best. It's never the "big picture".

By rough estimate, if Matt/Alen saw 2,734,631 visitors (or roughly that) for their promo and they generated let's say 20,000 front end sales... the conversion on that is 0.73%. Less than 1%.

And that's with a MEGA success put on by 2 top notch marketers.

Sure, some of the guys who promoted this offer likely saw conversions to their own list of 3%, 4%, maybe even that 6% or 8% etc. But those are their internal conversions. The overall page, from mixed traffic, converts at less than 1% and still made for a phenomenal success.

Just more math to be aware of.