Tony, Luke ... thanks so much for the detailed responses.
If this continues, I'll have no choice but to put a link to this thread in the welcome message.
By all means, PLEASE continue.
Thanks ... again, Gentlemen.
Best,
Mike
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Tony, Luke ... thanks so much for the detailed responses.
If this continues, I'll have no choice but to put a link to this thread in the welcome message.
By all means, PLEASE continue.
Thanks ... again, Gentlemen.
Best,
Mike
My story goes down a little different path...
Before I begin, a quick rundown of my "experiences" just so that it's clear where I'm coming from as far as online marketing goes:
1) Have had 5 figure months marketing a single affiliate program
2) Have had own products that have sold low 6 figures (before affiliate payout and business partner's cut)
3) Have built up lists that were in the tens of thousands
So as you can see, I'm definately not new to internet marketing.
Unlike most people, I do things to be helpful, not because I'm looking for any kind of return, but because I'm a helpful person by nature. I don't expect help, but I would have expected at least some consideration...and even that is hard to come by, regardless of how much time and effort I've put forth to help someone.
There are times that I've spent weeks of time working on something for someone (be it sales copy, helping support their customers, sending out a mailing, making tons of sales for them...etc.). In fact, if I mentioned the names of those people here, I'd bet that every single person would recognize them. I won't mention them though, simply because it isn't pertinent to the topic, nor do I know the circumstances and reasons behind the lack of response.
I've always heard that good things come back around...I've stopped holding my breath at this point. That doesn't mean I'll stop helping, just that I don't think the saying holds much weight.
Not one single time has one of the people I spent tons of time helping, come back and asked if there was anything they could do in return. Granted, I'm not big on asking for help to begin with, but when I do, it's because I actually need help. Usually, I'm extremely lucky if they even respond to an email, let alone seriously consider anything. At this point, I've become almost as resigned as Ralf when it comes to getting help on the joint venture side of things.
I don't know that relationship building is necessarily the key. I would bet that it plays an important role, but I've also seen where things like social proof and even just money play major roles as well. Even so, the hardest thing that I've encountered is in just getting a foot in the door. If I can't even get a foot in the door, how am I supposed to build any kind of relationship?
As such, I figured looking for a JV manager would be the way to go. They know alot more about what their contacts are looking for and could help provide direction. Little did I know that it was an even tougher challenge. Granted, I didn't contact all of them, but the ones I did (who were actively looking for JV's to work on), didn't even bother responding.
At this point in my online business, I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do next. I've become indecisive due to nothing working out, and am not even sure where to go next. What really bothers me is that I have a business partner (who happens to be an extremely good programmer), so failure or success doesn't affect just me and my family, but him and his.
Regardless, hopefully everyone else here has a much better experience, and you learn enough from the pros in this forum to set you on the right path! I know one day I'll get there, I just have to figure out where I'm going wrong, and right the boat.
I saw several positive responses, so that's definately uplifting at least a little. I just wanted to throw a different perspective out there for others to chew on.
Sincerely,
Chris
P.S. You'll have to forgive my negative tone...I'm usually a very positive guy. At some point though, all the optimism in the world just doesn't cut it anymore.
P.P.S. I'm also normally very active in the communities I choose to participate in, so also my apologies to Mike for not being around more. Believe me, I want to, it just isn't possible until I get to a better point business wise.
Hello
I could be negative, (as I have tried to build relationships and participate in various forums, etc, and have still come up short on the JV side of the house), but I won't.
I am looking at the entire situation as a university learning experience. The more failed attempts I have, the more I learn and the more time I have to go back and fine-tune my product, tweek my sales copy, etc...
Even though I have not had a successful jv as of yet, I know it is coming. I do however wish that those who have made it, do sometimes take a look back at where you came from and consider that the little person tugging on your sleeve at the moment was probably you not long ago.
It burns me sometimes to see that people will quickly JV with someone simply because they have a name dispite the fact that the product stinks or is not all that, and will thumb their nose at someone else simply because they don't have a name, but they have a great product.
I don't know if that ranting made much since, I was simply trying to say that, if you investigate the product and it is sound, maybe JVing with the person may not be a bad decision, can't we all just help each other.
That back you scratch today, might just be your six-figure back scratcher in the future.
Chris ... so glad to see your feedback ... you've been missed.
And please don't apologize for being 'negative' ... your response was an honest, detailed perspective. If we're going to try to put our heads together to arrive at something positive for all, we're going to have to address the negatives.
I believe relationship building is key in that it is a way for us to make up for lack of celebrity ... we are, in effect, raising our own level of celebrity by increasing our connections ... IMHO.Quote:
I don't know that relationship building is necessarily the key. I would bet that it plays an important role, but I've also seen where things like social proof and even just money play major roles as well. Even so, the hardest thing that I've encountered is in just getting a foot in the door. If I can't even get a foot in the door, how am I supposed to build any kind of relationship?
We obviously have to answer to the 'what's in it for me and my subscribers?' in a way a cut above our peers if we're going to get ahead of the pack ... in my experience, satisfying that need with a personal touch prior to being in need of their reciprocation ... one on one, has been working much better than simply sending out email blasts.
The less well known we are in regards to celebrity, the more we have to do to stand out ... for me, it's been going the extra yard to over satisfy the WIIFM ... and putting everything at hands reach, all of the time ... in addition to getting everything set up and tested well before I intend on launching ... give partners with big lists plenty of advance notice to schedule mailings, offer feedback, and set up any personalized promo tools they may desire.
However ... I feel that if I approached 50 potential partners that I had taken the time to personally email, IM, or telephone prior to launch ... established at least some kind of rapport with them ... gone a step further to satisfy their individual needs, I would have qualified myself a notch above the rest.
I'm rambling ... Chris, you're a super talent ... and I appreciate your help.
If I can reciprocate ... please ask.
Best,
Mike
I hear you, Richard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Trice
Which is why I recommend working on your own business, first ... and slowly reach out for reciprocals with others like minded. It won't happen over night, but there truly is strength in numbers ... you just have to stay close and take care of each other as you grow. Hey ... the 'biggest, brightest shiny object' syndrome isn't going to go away, so you might as well build your own tight little circle and reap the benefits as the trickle broadens.
Best,
Mike
Wow, was I surprised to see 14 replies in a few hours.
Thanks for your contributions guys, it's a great thread. :-)
Here's more advice in a few posts than I've seen in a 150 pages ebook on JVs. There are so many things I could respond to, it would be a VERY VERY long post, so I pick just a few ideas:
Mike, that makes complete sense to me. At least in the internet marketing niche the term 'JV' becomes more and more synonymous to the term 'affiliate', or to be precise: 'affiliate with a huge list who's ready to promote my product'. I wonder when people started to use the term this way?Quote:
I think one of major problems with Joint Venture Marketing in 2007 is that JVs have been pushed into the 'make money fast' category, as opposed to it's original intent ... mutual reward derived from combined effort between 2 parties.
From a newbie point of view it does make sense of course. Because what could you offer if you have no list of your own, no business history etc.? So you know you can't bring much to the table, yet everybody is telling you you can't make it in the business without the help of the big guys and cool JVs.
Please note: I'm not being negative here, I just want to make the thought very clear, and thus I might exaggerate a bit in the wording. I guess you get the point...
So how does a newbie enter the market and make contacts? I'm not talking about making contacts that can be monetized right away with promotions. I'm more talking about being noticed at all.
A good start (in an early stage) might be to participate in forums and offer simple things like answering questions, offering reviews of products and sales letters to build relationships. (The advanced stage would be to get attention through your products and websites)
Over the last 15 month I was very active in a few closed communities. It may not have been the best use of my time regarding effectiveness for business, but I had lots of fun and being effective wasn't my goal at that time. And I learned a lot and it did build a few relationships.
What I found is that often those who require the most help in a forum usually aren't those who you really would want to have a relationship with if your goal is efficiency. Usually they are newbies who don’t even know how right click and save a file.
They can be very active, post a lot of questions, PM you for help … and after a few days or weeks they are out of business before they’re in. So did you waste your time? In a way you did, but on the other hand you get noticed by the more serious guys as well.
Which brings me to…
That really got my attention. Especially the ‘serious marketers’, because that’s point: 95% of the people you will meet online are enthusiastic, but they are not serious. You can spend a lot of time with them, even a good time, but they will not be the ones that you will ever benefit from. So when you start networking pay attention to where you invest your time. While helping out people who may not follow through is still something that’s okay, you should not forget to focus on ‘serious marketers’ as well.Quote:
Make the effort to meet serious marketers and develop relationships with them.
And I like to add one more criteria...
Christopher, thanks for sharing. I totally understand where you’re coming from, I met those guys too. Those who are ‘serious marketers’ but who still are not the best persons to network with. They are those who talk about mutual benefit but who don’t walk their talk. They make you work, forget to say thank you and they can’t remember you until they have new job to delegate.Quote:
There are times that I've spent weeks of time working on something for someone (be it sales copy, helping support their customers, sending out a mailing, making tons of sales for them...etc.). In fact, if I mentioned the names of those people here, I'd bet that every single person would recognize them. I won't mention them though, simply because it isn't pertinent to the topic, nor do I know the circumstances and reasons behind the lack of response.
I've always heard that good things come back around...I've stopped holding my breath at this point. That doesn't mean I'll stop helping, just that I don't think the saying holds much weight.
Not one single time has one of the people I spent tons of time helping, come back and asked if there was anything they could do in return.
That’s why we need a second criteria: A potential JV partner must be a ‘serious marketer’ but also a ‘trustworthy business person’. That’s more hard to find out of course.
So far my first thoughts on your posts, I might come back with more tomorrow.
Right now it's 4am in Germany and time to shut down the PC.
Again, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience. :)
Ralf
Allow me to post an article I wrote recently on my blog, it basically sums up my thinking on the matter:
7 Laws of Successful JV requests
Almost daily, I receive JV requests in one of my inboxes.
Most of them are awful. The presentation is terrible and the sender gives themselves almost no chance of successfully hooking the partners they need to have a successful launch or just get their product out there to the masses.
Here are the Dos and Don’ts of attracting top level JV partners, even if you are rolling out your first product, have no list and are starting from scratch.
1) Title: If they don’t read your email, you’re dead in the water:
Solid JV partners, the kind you can leverage for high sales volume and market validation are busy people. They are also in demand.
They get piles of spam.
Your title needs to demonstrate that the email is not junk AND some kind of relationship to the JV partner.
2) Establish a Connection between you and JV partner:
There are ways to stack the odds in your favor and demonstrate it. These call for attention. They don’t close the deal but they warrant your potential JV partner allotting a minute or two to consider your proposition.
Who the Heck are you?
Do you read my blog? Do you comment on it regularly? Did you buy one of my products? Did you buy an affiliate product from me because you liked my bonus? Do you subscribe to my list?
Prove it. Forward me an invoice and write your message above this invoice. I read things that are related to sales.
If you read my blog or are a subscriber, leave comments before you ask for something. Don’t just say “hey man, great blog”. It sounds like one of the hundreds of spam messages WP automatically deletes everyday.
Give me a specific example. Did you like my post about XYZ or was one of my newsletters useful to you? Tell me and be specific. You’re rubbing me the right way and breaching the gap that exists between 2 people that don’t know each other.
Worst case scenario? Paypal them a $20. Drop a note at the same time that you did this to grab their attention because what you have to say is that important. Money talks.
3) Give them a reason why:
When you introduce your proposal, the first thing your JV partner wants to know is “why should I read this? How does it apply to me?”
Answer those concerns right away. If you’ve done your homework, you are contacting the RIGHT person for a REASON: because your product and the potential JV have a match. Demonstrate it right away.
4) Show them you’re on top of things:
- Don’t send your message from a free email provider. Your proof is lessened.
- Show them you have a reason to put out the product other than make a quick buck. Why are YOU qualified to be the one that puts this offer to market?
- Attach a sample of the product to your message right away. Better yet, include a review copy.
- Demonstrate you’ve done your homework and the JV’s list would benefit from the product.
- Have some sales copy up (more on this in a minute)
- Have an affiliate program ready
5) Sales Copy and packaging:
Your JV partner is concerned with making sales and sending his visitors to something that looks and feels professional. They are thinking about conversions right away. They are the person you selected because they know how to run a successful business.
Sales copy is incredibly important. If you can’t write something top notch, pay and outsource it. If I have any doubt about your copy, I won’t promote, it’s that simple.
Bad copy shows you are not a pro and you are not willing to invest in one. It tells me right off the bat you aren’t as invested in your product as you should be.
6) Affiliate Deals:
You’re soliciting them. Make them a special offer. Can you give them a higher percentage of the sale than you can give regular affiliates? Can you give them ALL the money from the sale to hook them in?
Do you have a unique bonus you can give for a select few partners? Ramp it up to irresistible. What customers can’t refuse, affiliates have trouble saying no to.
7) Name Drop:
Did you get another big name to commit? Say so, it proves someone else saw value in your proposition. Someone your JV can identify with.
That’s why you can afford laser target the first partners you wish to attract and give those people ALL of the commission from the sale: because you can leverage their participation into critical mass for your project.
By the time you’ve hooked a couple of bigshots, the others will almost automatically come onboard just to be in the party.
If you follow all these rules, you will select the right people, demonstrate value and competence and generally convince them that you are a solid choice to do business with.
Leave no loose ends. It will take you more time and commitment than to do things half way. Your JV partners know that and it only proves that you mean business.
Don’t forget to follow up.
Hi Alex,
great article, thanks for posting.
More good stuff on your blog?
...use your sig. ;D
Keep going guys!
Ralf
Great article, Alex ... and thanks for following up, Ralf. ;)
Let me give you a quick, true example of my way of thinking on much of this ...
About 3 years ago, I was running what was then a very active Internet Marketing Forum ... and coming into my own as a JV Broker on a part time basis.
A young woman approached me and said that she had heard of my success setting up major launches, and was wondering if I would check out her product and possibly get behind it. The young lady was an absolute doll, and very active on my forum, so I decided to give it a look ... but promptly got sidetracked with other work and we lost touch. The launch was a failure for her, but she dusted herself off ... and took a good long look at her business, and herself. She studied, researched, and worked on improving her web site and newsletter, went to seminars and participated in forums to network and further hone her craft, and started building co promotional relationships with others around her success level, greatly increasing results through leverage ... the success level of her 'inner circle' increased to the point where they were invited to participate with higher level marketers ... now, her name and those of her 'inner circle' are pretty well know, just 3 years later.
... does Liz Tomey ring a bell? Jeff Dedrick? John Hostler? Jason James? Keith Wellman? Eric Holmlund? ;)
I recently apologized to Liz at Mike Filsaime's seminar earlier this year for not holding her hand back then ... she actually thanked me for giving her the chance to fall, and pick herself up. She feels it forced her to make important changes in her business in order to survive and grow ... another example of how it can be done, and how using reciprocal relationships can help.
Best,
Mike
Hi Guys,
What a thread, I am one of those people who loves to work on my product and improve it but when it comes to marketing I am a bit unsure of myself, thinking marketers will shoot me down, and leave me there...
But lately I became more bold in my approach, and got talking with the office of one rather well known marketer, and they invited me to America for a JV :o but for me to afford a trip to America would cost me selling almost everything I have, just to afford it, and they gave me a short time frame to decide, because they invited 15 other newbies, so we can all do a JV with them...
Now I am in this crisis deciding would it be worth it for me short term and long term, and I could not come to a positive conclusion since financially it is really risky for me to invest the money to travel to America but then if I could survive the next 2 months and get a positive launch maybe it would be a plus, I mean people can still decide my product is not worth the money :-\
But know after reading the thread, I realize that this is most probably an opportunity I should not miss, even though the risk is high for me know, as I made the mistake to put all my eggs in one basket, there might be long term reward in the fact that even if people do not like my product, at least I am gaining huge experience that would otherwise not have been possible!
So I will most probably then go and sell my car, and everything else I can find, start mowing a few lawns and get a ticket even if it is for experience only... Because it seemed an opportunity was given to me that few people get, and even though there are 15 other newbies, this should be a trip worth remembering.
Because as I see it now, it is an opportunity with a rather well known marketer and possibly 15 other JV partners, because even though all of us are newbies, I am more than sure we each can learn from one another....
So thanks for a great thread!