why I don't care about list size.

[Rob Toth]

I've personally had JVs with or created JVs (on behalf of a partner/client) with some of today's best branded IM guys.

Some of these guys claim 80k, 125k even 160k lists.

I don't doubt it for a second and I have no reason not to trust that this is true.

BUT, I personally don't use that as any indication of how valuable that JV will be in terms of gross sales.

I've had one partner with just under 10,000 subscribers pull $17,000 gross (approx) ... while another with 80,000 subscribers pulled $1500. Same exact offer.

I've had a partner with supposedly 160k subscribers pull $2000 gross while one with 15,000 pulled $9000 gross. Same offer.

I could keep going with the examples.

I'm not going to suggest that sheer volume is irrelevant. No, it does matter.

But, I'll take INFLUENCE (aka "endorsement power") over just volume any day.

Does anybody care that they got an email from Marketer X? And even if they read the email, do they care about the recommendation?

And even if they do... has Marketer X promoted a dozen such products to those same leads recently? Which means they already feel like they have a solution.

Or maybe pulled a lot of cash out of that list already? Is everyone just over-spent?

So many other variables come into play.

I can honestly say that pure list size is empty information to me.

What *I* care about is hearing some of their past EPCs or EPC rankings.

How much have they earned in the past promos and relative to other super affiliates for that promo, how well did they rank??

And how many UNIQUES (unique clicks) can they usually send.

In a conversation with a 125k list owner, I asked about his typical Uniques. He said 2000. 2000 uniques from 125,000 leads?? That's very low. Especially when I can pull 1000 uniques from an much much smaller 8000 (approx) list.


Then again, the mindset of the average lead (how they were acquired) will also matter a lot.

One now-close-friend 100k+ list owner pulled fantastic EPCs and 5-figure gross with one of my offers. Yet those same leads, resulted in only about $600 gross for a different offer he promoted 2 weeks later.


"List size" is mostly empty information.

If you really want to build powerful JVs, then find those who have a relevant audience, marketers who don't over-promote to their leads, marketers with cloud/endorsement power, ones who can send a worthwhile number of uniques... etc... and then chase them hard. Go out of your way to cater something very special to them.

Don't just look for "list size" as the end all, be all variable.

[Dan B]

I agree and had the exact same situation in our launch last June. I had a guy with a 10k list pull in more sales than several with 40-60k lists.

It is more about how "abused" the list has been, how many junk offers it gets sent every week, and how old it is...

My ideal partner would be someone with a list that they don't market to constantly, with a NEW list that isn't years old, but just a few months (maybe obtained through a product launch), and also ideally if possible, a BUYERS list, rather than just a list of people who subscribed for a free gift - buyers are just much more responsive.

[Greg Dalberri]

It also depends on how they got their list.

If they received it from a free giveaway and they promote to it ALL the time with every JV listing and HOT CB product, not so good in the response department.

Now I recently read a pdf that the author was basically saying the following:

If you have a decent product and sell it for $1 and create a list, you now have a list of 'proven buyers'.
If the product you sell is decent, they are starting to build a trust and see value in what you have.

We always read, that the $ is in the list. Sure. We also read we should average $1 per month per subscriber. Ok.

This guy claims he does 3 times the average.

He doesn't promote junk. believe it or not, he says he promotes 4-7 times a week too (which I thought was a lot, but hey, he's doing it and I am not)

3 times the average.

It all depends on the quality of the list and the list owner. We have all been on those lists where we are spammed to death with every rotten, stinkin offer on the planet.

We all should have been on some lists where we don't get emailed often, and when it comes in it seems more sincere.

That's another point that was made in the pdf, copying the emails from the affiliate page is another no-no. Amazing to see so many 'gurus' who do that.

Seriously?

I get (so will your list) 2- 7 of the SAME email on the SAME day. All with the same story. "My friend just busted CB...blah blah blah...."
When I see those now, I immediately UNSUBSCRIBE.

The power comes from building a relationship with your list. Most gurus tell you about this, yet most DO NOT do it.

Some offer 'exclusive' bonuses if you buy from them.

Look:

bottom line is, some lists work and others don't. The OP was correct, do NOT count the 'small list guy' as not being worthy or out at all!

He may (and probably does) have a better relationship with his list than the big list guys.

OH and in my opinion, ask for screenshots of lists (still don't trust) and be wary of people who charge for a one time mailing. If you have a decent product and are offering a decent commission (assuming you are offering a commission) then they would RATHER promote under an affiliate link than just for $125.

They all claim a certain CTR and response, if that were the case, they would be promoting their own affiliate products and making 10X what they ask for the mailing.

NOT ALL of these are bad people or bad deals. JUST BE AWARE!

Greg

[Greg Jacobs]

lol

serious no BS numbers here
this year on a series of 3 mails, on an affiliate promotion, I sold approx 180k off a list of 5k

[Mike Merz]

Back in 2004 I set up and optimized an affiliate page with a $250 rebate offer on a $997 physical product. Attracted a 'waiting list' of 200 prospects and mailed 3 phases ... made 22 sales, minus 2 refunds = 20 x $250 (after rebate) commission -> $5K from a list of 200, 6 years ago. Not too bad, eh? ;)

Cheers,

Mike

[Rob Toth]

I think treating it PURELY as a "numbers game" can hinder your profits.

Mike's story is a great one.

Just had a Skype convo last night of how 395 leads (though with direct mail and phone included) was turned into $28,000.

sounds like we're all on the same page.

The endorsement power and the unique clicks ability is what I care about.

I also care about whether a JV partner does followups. If all they plan on doing is a single shot promo... they they likely do that with many others and they do it often. Which means they really aren't getting even a 1/3rd of what they could from my promotion with their list.

[Brandon Schmid]

I foud that once I took out "negative" keywords for our campaign the quailty increase. One of the biggest negative keywords is free. Not going to make a lot of money with a list of "freebee seekers"

Cheers!

Brandon

[Glen Kirkham]

I agree with OP... Give me a small list of buyers over a massive 'trash list' any day :)

[Craig Michaels]

Rob,

You point out some interesting findings.

Too often we see a large list and wet
our pants without knowing it's potentials.

Yet another reminder that the money is
indeed in a quality list, not just one
with the most subscribers.

[farfrombrooklyn]

It's late, the tail end of one fine day, so let me pull out my virtual stogie, kick back and puff up a philosophical storm of minute proportions.

Digital rings and all.

I cringe at the word traffic, volume as a stand alone figure is only a marker, at the end of the day it is about the conversion. I'm not saying a large number isn't going to make me perk up at the possibility, but ultimately it's the relationship to the list that really get's my attention.

Each list is different, unique... how it's viewed all the difference, are we nurturing or exploiting? our objective the definition.

Cheers, Sergio.
ps: All pondering aside, my mouth still waters at over 500k.

[robrammuny]

I agree here with you.

If you treat your list like crap, it doesn't matter how big it is your list won't convert.

That's why I always say the money isnt in the list size, it's in how responsive your list is.

And anyways, 125k list size isn't the #'s anyone should care about. It's the open & click through rates that matter the most.

[Rob Toth]

>> It's the open & click through rates that matter the most.

Absolutely. And I'll just add one more piece to that if you don't mind...

It's not just the click throughs from your email list I care about.

I want to know how many Uniques you can deliver from your full audience.

That's why I prefer to use "audience" as, these days, it's more holistic. You may have a hyper responsive blog readership, youtube subscribers, facebook fans, twitter followers... or maybe you just flat out have great advertising systems . Your "list" is great, but if you're promoting to your FULL audience (which may be the case if someone REALLY gets behind a JV), then it's your total uniques I care about.