They say JVs don't work - can you prove them wrong?

[Ralf Skirr]

Hi,

These days I started to look around how to find JV partners for product launches.
Focusing on promo JVs is a somewhat restricted view of JV, but it's what most JVs in our industry are about I guess.

I did a lot of research in forums, blogs, review sites and sales letters and the results are disappointing.
In forums lots of people talk about it, but very few actually share real life experiences from their own business. It seems that people are just posting their guesswork or wish list.

And of course lots of people say they tried - but did not get successful results.

Summarizing what I found there are 3 groups in a combination that does not produce great results for the most:
1) LOTS of people who want others to promote their product.
2) Some people who promise to promote it, while actually only collecting freebies of the product without doing anything in return.
3) Only a few honest and serious partners who do successful promotions for the product vendors.

Here's a typical summary of someone who tired.

"I was a member for a few months so I could test the system with my own products. I have to say that I was extremely disappointed. Many of the people who took free copies of my software to review, send a testimonial, or promote to their mailing lists did nothing. I have not received testimonials, and my software was not promoted by most of them. In fact, only one person did promote my stuff after receiving her free copy."

This review is not related to JV Notify Pro, but it fits right in with Mike's rant. (http://www.jvnotifypro.com/community/index.php/topic,353.0.html)

Sales letters to commercial JV platforms typically contain testimonials with lots of enthusiasm but also no results. A current sales letter for a JV seminar e.g. has only one testimonial that shares results of a person who had a successful launch...an that's the organizer of the seminar himslef. Not very convincing, since being the leader he typically gets all the attention and support of the crowd.

Lift up our spirits, share your story. :)

Despite my somewhat negative conclusions above I'm sure it's not all bad and look forward to some stories to lift up all our spirits.

So now it's time for those who walk their talk, those who are active in their business and who managed to create successfull promo JVs, to share their real life experience.


Which methods of getting JVs have you tried?
How did you pull of successful JVs?
What did work for you, what didn't?


Thanks for sharing,
Ralf

[Mike Merz]

Great topic, Ralf.

I think one of major problems with Joint Venture Marketing in 2007 is that JVs have been pushed into the 'make money fast' category, as opposed to it's original intent ... mutual reward derived from combined effort between 2 parties.

Joint Ventures should come after entering into a relationship, not before.

I've seen too many newbie to intermediate Marketers throw together a product and run around looking for JV partners, when they should focus on building their self and product brand ... first, and build relationships one at a time with partners at their level to potentially co promote with.

HINT: The reason I created JVNP was to satisfy that need ... are you making good use of it?

Once they start to use the leverage gained by building this 'inner circle' of partners to build relationships with higher level partners, their JV efforts will be maximized by the partners that are more loyal and obliged to participate because they took the time to become intimate and reciprocal.

That is why I tell my clients to give me up to a month and a half notice prior to asking potential partners to participate ... to give them and/or their affiliate manager sufficient time to get to know each potential partner well in advance of the launch. Those that have not followed my advice have largely failed, and it doesn't surprise me ... to expect a mass email every other day to be the only motivation a JV Partner needs to keep their focus on a project is foolish, and very costly.

Understand that the only JV fueled launches that do well without intimate one on one interaction prior to launch is because the merchant and/or their product line has achieved 'celebrity' status ... they have already qualified themselves to a large extent in regards to self and product branding (that doesn't mean they couldn't have done even better if they had their Launch Manager taken the personal touch route).

... the rest of us have to work at building our self and product brand, our strategic 'circle of friends' alliances, and not put the cart before the horse by trying to grab every JV partners we can find ... only to wind up with a poor launch and a puss on our faces. :(

Just my 2 cents ... for now. ;)

Best,

Mike

[Will Haimerl]

As someone completely new to JVs I have done my research and always found it kind of odd that you have "build relationships" with people first. I don't have anything against that, but this is business not happy hour or social time for me. In every other form of marketing I've done, it's always business first, then friendships come from doing solid business together. In JV marketing it seems to be the other way around. I know networking is important, but if someone has a solid product why do they have become your buddy before you'll help them promote it?

I'm not knocking it, just saying it's kind of different...?

[Mike Merz]

I'm not talking about the 'let's go down to the corner pub and grab a brew' type of 'buddy' (though I'm not totally against the idea. ;)).

I'm talking about building a trust through interaction prior to asking for a favor ... I get JV invites on a daily basis ... the one's I take less time to go over with a fine tooth comb are the one's that come from folks I have a rapport with ... they've pre qualified themselves to a certain extent ... is that so odd?

Best,

Mike

[Chris Vendilli]

I have mixed results with my attempts to rally up joint venture partners for an online product launch. But what I have learned so far is exactly in line with what Mike mentioned here... the better reputation you have online and the more people you meet, the better results you will have.

I have noticed that each new site I created leads me to meet new marketers, therefore making each new site launch a bit better than the last, since my web of connections is growing and growing.

As you work online and gain experience in your niche you will also begin to build better products and nicer looking sites, which will also attract better partners.

There is a million and one reasons a product launch can go wrong and it's hard to point the blame at your JV partners. This seems to be a frequent happening and I believe it to be part of human nature. What I mean is we have a tendency to blame others for our shortfalls rather than looking within and examining what WE did to cause something to not go as intended.

I'm not criticizing anyone here specifically, just generalizing some of the things I've seen and heard on multiple forums.

My first online product ever was a total mess. When I say total mess I MEAN COMPLETE DISASTER. The site looked like crap and the product itself was pretty weak now that I look back on it... I didn't know ANYBODY in the business and I was on every mailing list you can imagine, and then some.

I started replying to newsletter messages I was receiving from the lists I was on with lame JV proposals asking for help promoting my new product. I got little to no response for several reasons and here are a few:

* The site looked like hell
* The product itself was weak
* I had ZERO reputation or rapport with anyone
* No one had ever even heard my name

I started to recognize some of the causes of my product's flop. My very next project I teamed up with a completely unknown marketer who at the time, didn't even consider himself a marketer.

He had a lot of knowledge about "MySpace" at the time MySpace marketing was the big craze and we happened to have worked together on eBay related stuff as we were both PowerSellers at the time. I was trying to transition from eBay seller to internet marketer because it seemed like more payoff for less effort.

I put a site together around his knowledge and I still had little to no online presence or reputation. I decided to launch the site under an alias and I focused all my effort around creating value.

I put together a much more focused "launch" and started using the contacts I was making in discussion forums, webinars, etc. I personalized each and every JV request instead of sending out the same lame-a$$ JV message to a bunch of different people.

I gave away access to my new membership site and started getting testimonials, feedback, and I actually listened to what more experienced marketers suggested and implemented changes before going live.

I "launched" that site so to speak almost a year ago, on October 31, 2006 - Halloween day. The site still brings in a sale every couple of days after nearly a year, and I had a wonderful launch like most people talk about on forums.

I don't consider it luck and it's not because I go to 3 dozen seminars a year. In fact, I've only been to two in my entire life. The first was Shawn Casey's and I ended up becoming friends with Shawn and he actually promoted my site just days after the seminar... (this was months after the site was live), and the second was as a VIP at Ross Goldberg's first ever seminar.

By taking my time and listening to people who are wiser than me I've learned a ton about internet marketing in a very very short time. The site I talked about here that launched on 10/31/06 is still up and profitable. To date, that little website has pumped out approximately $50k in gross membership sales and has been a major contributor to helping me build a responsive and nicely sized mailing list.

I don't consider myself an expert and am still learning every day... but from personal experience I know that JV's WORK! You just have to take the right approach and network! Build value packed quality sites and products and next thing you know you'll be making contacts left and right as you attract attention to yourself and your site.

Make sure that everyone you meet who is knowledgeable and experienced gets their own spot in your contacts list. I use MS Outlook but use whatever works for you. When I first started IM was just a dream to me and I thought it was all B.S. and that only the guru's can make it work... less than 2 years later I am the proud owner of a 3BR 2 bath house and just two days ago I made an offer on what's been almost like a dream car to me (a Land Rover)... I'm waiting to hear back from the dealer :).

And guess what, it DID NOT all happen overnight. I worked, and then worked some more... I feel I've earned every little bit of progress I've achieved... and too many people want that instant gratification of creating a new product expecting all the big names to promote it for them... they do that newbie math in their head and daydream about buying a porsche instead of focusing on the things we talked about here.

*** Let's see, if I get Filsaime, Fox, and Mike Merz to promote my product at $27, and I sell 4,000 copies...
That would be $108,000 dollars... I will give half to my affiliates and buy that Porsche with my other half...

*** I hate to be the one to burst that magical bubble but this isn't how it works... ;D

The best part of all of it is I still only consider myself to have achieved a small amount of success and I fully intend to continue growing my online business by building my contacts list and building bigger, cooler, and better websites.

Once you start making things WORK, just rinse and repeat. I now have over a dozen sites in multiple niches. A few of them are in IM and they are almost all making me a few dollars here and there :P.

Sorry to have been so long-winded, you guys got me all fired up because I believe JV's work if done properly and I wanted to help the thread starter get a little lift in that spirit of his ;)

[Mike Merz]

Great story, Chris ... very inspiring.

This thread has the potential to be the most rewarding in the forum ... please follow up Ralf, Will, Chris, and my responses with your own opinions and concerns.

Best,

Mike

[MSCopeland]

Here's my approach to becoming a partner. This is a business deal. You have a product you want me to market. I need to review the product to see #1 if it's good and #2 if it will fit into my overall business plan and vision. If it does not meet that criteria, then I tell them sorry, it's not a good fit for my business.

I get a lot of people who want me to critique their sites and products to tell them how to improve upon them. If when I turn down a potential JV and they want me to critique their stuff, I will. However, I do not candy coat anything. I mean that never helped anyone and I don't want to waste my time fluffing and your time trying to figure out what's fluff or not. So I don't do that. I'm straight and blunt in my reviews.

If the products are a match, I send out a broadcast to the group and/or put it in my autoresponder series. I also treat the product as I would my own, since it's an income stream, why wouldn't I?

I recently went to Jeff Mills' Midwest Super Conference and within a week I started making money on something that wasn't even my product! The approach has to be the same! Overall it's YOUR BUSINESS. It's time to start thinking like the CEO of your business and treat others with honor and respect! If not, people will not want to do business with you. In business, you should NEVER burn a bridge. That bridge could have been an income stream in the future.

Get your mind right and treat a JV as it should be, a partnership.

For those of you who don't know. JV = Joint Venture Partnership

So treat your Partnership as you would like to be treated when it comes time to launch yours!!!

[Mike Merz]

Nice, Michael ... as a matter of fact, your last line is comparable to the one featured in every JVNP mailing as my 'golden rule'.

What it all boils down to is playing odds and a lot of variables to tilt them in and out of favor ... you have to do what you can to keep the odds on your side.

Build a solid business and slowly leverage yourself and your partners through one on one reciprocation ... doesn't make sense to swing for the fences in the early going when getting on base consistently puts food on the table.

Let's hear some more ... great stuff.

Best,

Mike

[Tony Germana]

Hi Ralf, Tony Germana here.

They that say JVs don't work are simply wrong. JVs do work if you work them right.

Rarely do they work when an unknown gets a bunch of unknowns together to launch something. Joint Ventures are not and won't work as quick hit get rich quick efforts.

Remember this is a business. If you had $400,000 invested in your business, would you invite "Joe Crap" the ragman off the street to be your business partner? Of course not. Well don't do it here either.

Make the effort to meet serious marketers and develop relationships with them. There are plenty of serious marketers here that will work with you when you have established you presence and reputation as a serious marketer. This is not a catch 22. You don't have to be making tons of money (or any for that matter) to be a serious marketer. If you demonstrate committment and determination, serious marketers will consider you one of "them".

I am discovering more and more after 30 years in 'brick and mortar" businesses that doing business here is not much different. Who you know is very important. Who you are and how you are perceived is critically important.

We have enjoyed and continue to enjoy successful JVs. I won't advertise them here, that's not the purpose.

Just keep working at it. When you begin to make the right connections, believe me, you'll know it and you'll have more serious JV parterns to work with than you can say grace over.

Keep the faith!

Tony Germana
Founder: Germana Group

[Luke Parker]

This is a great thread, I'd like to add my success story with JVs to the pile.

First of all, JVs are like everything else in marketing... It's a numbers game.

It's exactly like that first ad everyone has to write as an affiliate marketer... You just can't know all the variables about one ad, so when it fails to make them millions, they usually blame the process itself of being flawed... They think they need a million-dollar ad copy writing course or need that big-name JV to send it to their list... Basically blaming the wrong factors when all they needed was to send out a few variations and of course more numbers.

When I wrote my JV Invite emails to all of the Joint Venture Partners for my Surefire Success Launch, I treated that list, made up only of affiliates and experienced marketers, like a numbers game and wrote THEM the best copy I could to SELL them on selling Surefire Success. -You've got to treat it no differently than selling an affiliate product itself. -It's all about convincing others to do what you want them to do, primarily by offering an incentive.

As Mike can tell you, I didn't know too many JVs at all when I came to this board and asked Mike to help me get the word out for Surefire Success. I'd written some free ebooks before, but that was my only for-money product launch.

I'd followed the infamous 'product launch formula' somewhat closely and worked hard on each and every one of the variables. I got some people to Beta test it for me, so I could post their testimonials on the sales page. I worked non-stop on the copy, and looking back it could have been a lot better.

But most of my time for the month leading up to launch through today has been talking to JVs & affiliates, offering them any help I could give them.

I KNOW that's made all the difference. I didn't break the clickbank record but for a whole month after launch I was getting some great numbers and still make daily sales now, 5 months later.

I have never met JVs at a seminar yet so I am living proof that you don't need to line up your JVs in advance to have a successful launch... I found plenty enough Right here. Mike's done a Terrific job in that respect.

Of course if you have a great sales page, and better yet, can show numbers that it converts (such as 5% of all AdSense Traffic you throw at it) then by all means approach all the big-name Gurus out there. I talked to Ewen Chia, Joel Comm, Bob the Teacher, Allyn Gardyne, Ken Evoy, and plenty others that way and they all gave consideration... But in the end my copy wasn't good enough. My fault. -So they are listening, every last one of them.

I still found dozens of biggish-name Gurus through sheer numbers. Liz Tomey, Ben Shaffer, and some of my other contest winners found me through this board, but some of the others I contacted on their Blogs. -Yes, the Blogoshpere is FULL of people with influential readers. I'd rather have ten known bloggers than one known list owner any day... Those write reviews for you that stick around, and the search engines see those!

So JVs come in all forms, and they all take work, every last one. Just don't worry about buying them a beer first, you can approach anyone if you've got the right ingredients for a successful launch.

If you don't, and they can tell you don't, then what possible reason would they have to choose your launch over some other guy's who does that week?

Myself, I only recommend 1 product to my lists each week. I look in places like here to find launches that not only look like they'll sell well, but are priced affordably, really work like promised, and also that are highly targeted to my list. Sometimes the first product I peek at will be great, but sometimes I have to search hard and still won't find one. The bottom line is, each and every affiliate and JV out there has lots of variables to consider about each and every launch they consider, so you have to look at it like a numbers game.

Have a great product, make sure it sells well up front, then approach everyone you can, and offer all the help you can to them. If you just do that then JVs are a Surefire Success. :)

[Mike Merz]

Tony, Luke ... thanks so much for the detailed responses.

If this continues, I'll have no choice but to put a link to this thread in the welcome message.

By all means, PLEASE continue.

Thanks ... again, Gentlemen.

Best,

Mike

[Christopher Schumacher]

My story goes down a little different path...

Before I begin, a quick rundown of my "experiences" just so that it's clear where I'm coming from as far as online marketing goes:

1) Have had 5 figure months marketing a single affiliate program
2) Have had own products that have sold low 6 figures (before affiliate payout and business partner's cut)
3) Have built up lists that were in the tens of thousands

So as you can see, I'm definately not new to internet marketing.

Unlike most people, I do things to be helpful, not because I'm looking for any kind of return, but because I'm a helpful person by nature. I don't expect help, but I would have expected at least some consideration...and even that is hard to come by, regardless of how much time and effort I've put forth to help someone.

There are times that I've spent weeks of time working on something for someone (be it sales copy, helping support their customers, sending out a mailing, making tons of sales for them...etc.). In fact, if I mentioned the names of those people here, I'd bet that every single person would recognize them. I won't mention them though, simply because it isn't pertinent to the topic, nor do I know the circumstances and reasons behind the lack of response.

I've always heard that good things come back around...I've stopped holding my breath at this point. That doesn't mean I'll stop helping, just that I don't think the saying holds much weight.

Not one single time has one of the people I spent tons of time helping, come back and asked if there was anything they could do in return. Granted, I'm not big on asking for help to begin with, but when I do, it's because I actually need help. Usually, I'm extremely lucky if they even respond to an email, let alone seriously consider anything. At this point, I've become almost as resigned as Ralf when it comes to getting help on the joint venture side of things.

I don't know that relationship building is necessarily the key. I would bet that it plays an important role, but I've also seen where things like social proof and even just money play major roles as well. Even so, the hardest thing that I've encountered is in just getting a foot in the door. If I can't even get a foot in the door, how am I supposed to build any kind of relationship?

As such, I figured looking for a JV manager would be the way to go. They know alot more about what their contacts are looking for and could help provide direction. Little did I know that it was an even tougher challenge. Granted, I didn't contact all of them, but the ones I did (who were actively looking for JV's to work on), didn't even bother responding.

At this point in my online business, I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do next. I've become indecisive due to nothing working out, and am not even sure where to go next. What really bothers me is that I have a business partner (who happens to be an extremely good programmer), so failure or success doesn't affect just me and my family, but him and his.

Regardless, hopefully everyone else here has a much better experience, and you learn enough from the pros in this forum to set you on the right path! I know one day I'll get there, I just have to figure out where I'm going wrong, and right the boat.

I saw several positive responses, so that's definately uplifting at least a little. I just wanted to throw a different perspective out there for others to chew on.

Sincerely,

Chris


P.S. You'll have to forgive my negative tone...I'm usually a very positive guy. At some point though, all the optimism in the world just doesn't cut it anymore.

P.P.S. I'm also normally very active in the communities I choose to participate in, so also my apologies to Mike for not being around more. Believe me, I want to, it just isn't possible until I get to a better point business wise.

[Richard Trice]

Hello

I could be negative, (as I have tried to build relationships and participate in various forums, etc, and have still come up short on the JV side of the house), but I won't.

I am looking at the entire situation as a university learning experience. The more failed attempts I have, the more I learn and the more time I have to go back and fine-tune my product, tweek my sales copy, etc...

Even though I have not had a successful jv as of yet, I know it is coming. I do however wish that those who have made it, do sometimes take a look back at where you came from and consider that the little person tugging on your sleeve at the moment was probably you not long ago.

It burns me sometimes to see that people will quickly JV with someone simply because they have a name dispite the fact that the product stinks or is not all that, and will thumb their nose at someone else simply because they don't have a name, but they have a great product.

I don't know if that ranting made much since, I was simply trying to say that, if you investigate the product and it is sound, maybe JVing with the person may not be a bad decision, can't we all just help each other.

That back you scratch today, might just be your six-figure back scratcher in the future.

[Mike Merz]

Chris ... so glad to see your feedback ... you've been missed.

And please don't apologize for being 'negative' ... your response was an honest, detailed perspective. If we're going to try to put our heads together to arrive at something positive for all, we're going to have to address the negatives.


I don't know that relationship building is necessarily the key. I would bet that it plays an important role, but I've also seen where things like social proof and even just money play major roles as well. Even so, the hardest thing that I've encountered is in just getting a foot in the door. If I can't even get a foot in the door, how am I supposed to build any kind of relationship?

I believe relationship building is key in that it is a way for us to make up for lack of celebrity ... we are, in effect, raising our own level of celebrity by increasing our connections ... IMHO.

We obviously have to answer to the 'what's in it for me and my subscribers?' in a way a cut above our peers if we're going to get ahead of the pack ... in my experience, satisfying that need with a personal touch prior to being in need of their reciprocation ... one on one, has been working much better than simply sending out email blasts.

The less well known we are in regards to celebrity, the more we have to do to stand out ... for me, it's been going the extra yard to over satisfy the WIIFM ... and putting everything at hands reach, all of the time ... in addition to getting everything set up and tested well before I intend on launching ... give partners with big lists plenty of advance notice to schedule mailings, offer feedback, and set up any personalized promo tools they may desire.

However ... I feel that if I approached 50 potential partners that I had taken the time to personally email, IM, or telephone prior to launch ... established at least some kind of rapport with them ... gone a step further to satisfy their individual needs, I would have qualified myself a notch above the rest.

I'm rambling ... Chris, you're a super talent ... and I appreciate your help.

If I can reciprocate ... please ask.

Best,

Mike

[Mike Merz]

Hello

I could be negative, (as I have tried to build relationships and participate in various forums, etc, and have still come up short on the JV side of the house), but I won't.

I am looking at the entire situation as a university learning experience. The more failed attempts I have, the more I learn and the more time I have to go back and fine-tune my product, tweek my sales copy, etc...

Even though I have not had a successful jv as of yet, I know it is coming. I do however wish that those who have made it, do sometimes take a look back at where you came from and consider that the little person tugging on your sleeve at the moment was probably you not long ago.

It burns me sometimes to see that people will quickly JV with someone simply because they have a name dispite the fact that the product stinks or is not all that, and will thumb their nose at someone else simply because they don't have a name, but they have a great product.

I don't know if that ranting made much since, I was simply trying to say that, if you investigate the product and it is sound, maybe JVing with the person may not be a bad decision, can't we all just help each other.

That back you scratch today, might just be your six-figure back scratcher in the future.


I hear you, Richard.

Which is why I recommend working on your own business, first ... and slowly reach out for reciprocals with others like minded. It won't happen over night, but there truly is strength in numbers ... you just have to stay close and take care of each other as you grow. Hey ... the 'biggest, brightest shiny object' syndrome isn't going to go away, so you might as well build your own tight little circle and reap the benefits as the trickle broadens.

Best,

Mike

[Ralf Skirr]

Wow, was I surprised to see 14 replies in a few hours.

Thanks for your contributions guys, it's a great thread. :-)

Here's more advice in a few posts than I've seen in a 150 pages ebook on JVs. There are so many things I could respond to, it would be a VERY VERY long post, so I pick just a few ideas:


I think one of major problems with Joint Venture Marketing in 2007 is that JVs have been pushed into the 'make money fast' category, as opposed to it's original intent ... mutual reward derived from combined effort between 2 parties.

Mike, that makes complete sense to me. At least in the internet marketing niche the term 'JV' becomes more and more synonymous to the term 'affiliate', or to be precise: 'affiliate with a huge list who's ready to promote my product'. I wonder when people started to use the term this way?

From a newbie point of view it does make sense of course. Because what could you offer if you have no list of your own, no business history etc.? So you know you can't bring much to the table, yet everybody is telling you you can't make it in the business without the help of the big guys and cool JVs.

Please note: I'm not being negative here, I just want to make the thought very clear, and thus I might exaggerate a bit in the wording. I guess you get the point...

So how does a newbie enter the market and make contacts? I'm not talking about making contacts that can be monetized right away with promotions. I'm more talking about being noticed at all.

A good start (in an early stage) might be to participate in forums and offer simple things like answering questions, offering reviews of products and sales letters to build relationships. (The advanced stage would be to get attention through your products and websites)

Over the last 15 month I was very active in a few closed communities. It may not have been the best use of my time regarding effectiveness for business, but I had lots of fun and being effective wasn't my goal at that time. And I learned a lot and it did build a few relationships.

What I found is that often those who require the most help in a forum usually aren't those who you really would want to have a relationship with if your goal is efficiency. Usually they are newbies who don’t even know how right click and save a file.

They can be very active, post a lot of questions, PM you for help … and after a few days or weeks they are out of business before they’re in. So did you waste your time? In a way you did, but on the other hand you get noticed by the more serious guys as well.

Which brings me to…


Make the effort to meet serious marketers and develop relationships with them.

That really got my attention. Especially the ‘serious marketers’, because that’s point: 95% of the people you will meet online are enthusiastic, but they are not serious. You can spend a lot of time with them, even a good time, but they will not be the ones that you will ever benefit from. So when you start networking pay attention to where you invest your time. While helping out people who may not follow through is still something that’s okay, you should not forget to focus on ‘serious marketers’ as well.

And I like to add one more criteria...


There are times that I've spent weeks of time working on something for someone (be it sales copy, helping support their customers, sending out a mailing, making tons of sales for them...etc.). In fact, if I mentioned the names of those people here, I'd bet that every single person would recognize them. I won't mention them though, simply because it isn't pertinent to the topic, nor do I know the circumstances and reasons behind the lack of response.

I've always heard that good things come back around...I've stopped holding my breath at this point. That doesn't mean I'll stop helping, just that I don't think the saying holds much weight.

Not one single time has one of the people I spent tons of time helping, come back and asked if there was anything they could do in return.

Christopher, thanks for sharing. I totally understand where you’re coming from, I met those guys too. Those who are ‘serious marketers’ but who still are not the best persons to network with. They are those who talk about mutual benefit but who don’t walk their talk. They make you work, forget to say thank you and they can’t remember you until they have new job to delegate.

That’s why we need a second criteria: A potential JV partner must be a ‘serious marketer’ but also a ‘trustworthy business person’. That’s more hard to find out of course.

So far my first thoughts on your posts, I might come back with more tomorrow.
Right now it's 4am in Germany and time to shut down the PC.

Again, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience. :)
Ralf

[AlexGoad]

Allow me to post an article I wrote recently on my blog, it basically sums up my thinking on the matter:


7 Laws of Successful JV requests

Almost daily, I receive JV requests in one of my inboxes.

Most of them are awful. The presentation is terrible and the sender gives themselves almost no chance of successfully hooking the partners they need to have a successful launch or just get their product out there to the masses.

Here are the Dos and Don’ts of attracting top level JV partners, even if you are rolling out your first product, have no list and are starting from scratch.

1) Title: If they don’t read your email, you’re dead in the water:

Solid JV partners, the kind you can leverage for high sales volume and market validation are busy people. They are also in demand.

They get piles of spam.

Your title needs to demonstrate that the email is not junk AND some kind of relationship to the JV partner.

2) Establish a Connection between you and JV partner:

There are ways to stack the odds in your favor and demonstrate it. These call for attention. They don’t close the deal but they warrant your potential JV partner allotting a minute or two to consider your proposition.

Who the Heck are you?

Do you read my blog? Do you comment on it regularly? Did you buy one of my products? Did you buy an affiliate product from me because you liked my bonus? Do you subscribe to my list?

Prove it. Forward me an invoice and write your message above this invoice. I read things that are related to sales.

If you read my blog or are a subscriber, leave comments before you ask for something. Don’t just say “hey man, great blog”. It sounds like one of the hundreds of spam messages WP automatically deletes everyday.

Give me a specific example. Did you like my post about XYZ or was one of my newsletters useful to you? Tell me and be specific. You’re rubbing me the right way and breaching the gap that exists between 2 people that don’t know each other.

Worst case scenario? Paypal them a $20. Drop a note at the same time that you did this to grab their attention because what you have to say is that important. Money talks.

3) Give them a reason why:

When you introduce your proposal, the first thing your JV partner wants to know is “why should I read this? How does it apply to me?”

Answer those concerns right away. If you’ve done your homework, you are contacting the RIGHT person for a REASON: because your product and the potential JV have a match. Demonstrate it right away.

4) Show them you’re on top of things:

- Don’t send your message from a free email provider. Your proof is lessened.
- Show them you have a reason to put out the product other than make a quick buck. Why are YOU qualified to be the one that puts this offer to market?
- Attach a sample of the product to your message right away. Better yet, include a review copy.
- Demonstrate you’ve done your homework and the JV’s list would benefit from the product.
- Have some sales copy up (more on this in a minute)
- Have an affiliate program ready

5) Sales Copy and packaging:

Your JV partner is concerned with making sales and sending his visitors to something that looks and feels professional. They are thinking about conversions right away. They are the person you selected because they know how to run a successful business.

Sales copy is incredibly important. If you can’t write something top notch, pay and outsource it. If I have any doubt about your copy, I won’t promote, it’s that simple.

Bad copy shows you are not a pro and you are not willing to invest in one. It tells me right off the bat you aren’t as invested in your product as you should be.

6) Affiliate Deals:

You’re soliciting them. Make them a special offer. Can you give them a higher percentage of the sale than you can give regular affiliates? Can you give them ALL the money from the sale to hook them in?

Do you have a unique bonus you can give for a select few partners? Ramp it up to irresistible. What customers can’t refuse, affiliates have trouble saying no to.

7) Name Drop:

Did you get another big name to commit? Say so, it proves someone else saw value in your proposition. Someone your JV can identify with.

That’s why you can afford laser target the first partners you wish to attract and give those people ALL of the commission from the sale: because you can leverage their participation into critical mass for your project.

By the time you’ve hooked a couple of bigshots, the others will almost automatically come onboard just to be in the party.

If you follow all these rules, you will select the right people, demonstrate value and competence and generally convince them that you are a solid choice to do business with.

Leave no loose ends. It will take you more time and commitment than to do things half way. Your JV partners know that and it only proves that you mean business.

Don’t forget to follow up.

[Ralf Skirr]

Hi Alex,

great article, thanks for posting.

More good stuff on your blog?
...use your sig. ;D

Keep going guys!

Ralf

[Mike Merz]

Great article, Alex ... and thanks for following up, Ralf. ;)

Let me give you a quick, true example of my way of thinking on much of this ...

About 3 years ago, I was running what was then a very active Internet Marketing Forum ... and coming into my own as a JV Broker on a part time basis.

A young woman approached me and said that she had heard of my success setting up major launches, and was wondering if I would check out her product and possibly get behind it. The young lady was an absolute doll, and very active on my forum, so I decided to give it a look ... but promptly got sidetracked with other work and we lost touch. The launch was a failure for her, but she dusted herself off ... and took a good long look at her business, and herself. She studied, researched, and worked on improving her web site and newsletter, went to seminars and participated in forums to network and further hone her craft, and started building co promotional relationships with others around her success level, greatly increasing results through leverage ... the success level of her 'inner circle' increased to the point where they were invited to participate with higher level marketers ... now, her name and those of her 'inner circle' are pretty well know, just 3 years later.

... does Liz Tomey ring a bell? Jeff Dedrick? John Hostler? Jason James? Keith Wellman? Eric Holmlund? ;)

I recently apologized to Liz at Mike Filsaime's seminar earlier this year for not holding her hand back then ... she actually thanked me for giving her the chance to fall, and pick herself up. She feels it forced her to make important changes in her business in order to survive and grow ... another example of how it can be done, and how using reciprocal relationships can help.

Best,

Mike

[41trut5r]

Hi Guys,

What a thread, I am one of those people who loves to work on my product and improve it but when it comes to marketing I am a bit unsure of myself, thinking marketers will shoot me down, and leave me there...

But lately I became more bold in my approach, and got talking with the office of one rather well known marketer, and they invited me to America for a JV :o but for me to afford a trip to America would cost me selling almost everything I have, just to afford it, and they gave me a short time frame to decide, because they invited 15 other newbies, so we can all do a JV with them...

Now I am in this crisis deciding would it be worth it for me short term and long term, and I could not come to a positive conclusion since financially it is really risky for me to invest the money to travel to America but then if I could survive the next 2 months and get a positive launch maybe it would be a plus, I mean people can still decide my product is not worth the money :-\

But know after reading the thread, I realize that this is most probably an opportunity I should not miss, even though the risk is high for me know, as I made the mistake to put all my eggs in one basket, there might be long term reward in the fact that even if people do not like my product, at least I am gaining huge experience that would otherwise not have been possible!

So I will most probably then go and sell my car, and everything else I can find, start mowing a few lawns and get a ticket even if it is for experience only... Because it seemed an opportunity was given to me that few people get, and even though there are 15 other newbies, this should be a trip worth remembering.

Because as I see it now, it is an opportunity with a rather well known marketer and possibly 15 other JV partners, because even though all of us are newbies, I am more than sure we each can learn from one another....

So thanks for a great thread!

[Ralf Skirr]

Hi Dan,

thanks for sharing your story. I feel I have to add my 2 cents to what you wrote, although it may be discouraging for you.



But lately I ... got talking with the office of one rather well known marketer, and they invited me to America for a JV :o but for me to afford a trip to America would cost me selling almost everything I have, just to afford it, and they gave me a short time frame to decide, because they invited 15 other newbies, so we can all do a JV with them...
.
.
.
... Because it seemed an opportunity was given to me that few people get, and even though there are 15 other newbies, this should be a trip worth remembering.

Before you decide make sure you compare your options and also evaluate how sure you can be that you'll not only make your money back but also make profit. Otherwise you will be in a very bad position when you come back since it is a financial strain for you.

A Joint Venture that is based on doing something with a group of 15 newbies is not something that is likely to be huge money maker on first glance. Of course I can't give a founded evaluation since I don't know the concept of this offer. But at first thought it just doesn't sound promising to me and if I were you I would not spend my last bucks on it I guess.

It may be one of those many occasions where gurus cash in on hopes of newbies. To me it just doesn't have the feel of a JV when a well known marketer invites 15 newbies.

I've seen programs with the promise of 'hundreds of thousands, even millions will see your website' and none of the people who participated saw more than a few dozen visitors on their site.

It may lead a bit off-topic, but I'm curious: Would your cost only be the trip, or would you have to pay for a program or seminar to participate?

Best,
Ralf

[Chris Vendilli]

I recall once getting very irritated with Mr. Merz and his lack of response to one of my JV requests a long time ago on another forum (WF). I sent Mike some PM's and expected him to come right back and be eager to promote my offer to his partners that help him launch sites.

I didn't know Mike very well then and I still don't know him (you Mike!) very well now. But I have learned a lot since then and now I finally understand why I got the response (or lack thereof) that I got!

Mike didn't know me, we didn't have a relationship, I hadn't given ANYTHING back to HIS community. I'm still a total newbie here and wouldn't expect any of my offers to be promoted until I've at least contributed some value and made a difference in this online community.

That was a big thing that I just didn't get back then when I was 100% green behind the ears. Now I understand thanks to Mike, Reed (who I have had the chance to work with a bit), and the other members here at JV Notify Pro and other online forums I participate in that even in an online business sometimes you have to give before you get.

Just because you "heard" that someone is talented and skilled at launching websites does not mean you are entitled to their services, and in many cases, it doesn't even mean that you can pay for their services.

Every experienced business owner knows and appreciates that they have the right to refuse business to anyone, and if you have a weak offer or a bad rep, or a lack of rep, why should someone get behind you and your offer and try to make it work?

I mean seriously? Why SHOULD they?

Would Mike Merz be willing to risk his entire online reputation by promoting someone he is not familiar with and has no rapport with?

What if the product is a total B-U-S-T? What if the people start asking for refunds and the new guy that begged Mike to promote has run for the hills?

Who would look bad in that situation... surely Mike's business and reputation would suffer just as bad as the guy who took the money and ran!

I know if I was Mike I'd only be interested in dealing with people who have ALREADY established themselves as knowledgeabe, reputable, and willing to stand behind their own product. I think Mike's hard work and experience has earned him the right to only participate in launches that are put on by what he believes to be high quality marketers with high quality products.

I know my misconceptions as to how "launches" work and how to get a lot of affiliates behind you were common ones for a person new to the internet marketing niche especially. I always saw notification emails from Mike about the scheduled launch of the next big product and never realized to get my offer out to Mike's list it would take a little bit more than simply sending him a private message on a discussion forum.

Everyone wants that instant gratification. No one wants to put in a little elbow grease and take the time and effort to come socialize and share ideas a bit. Heck, open up a little and let people get to know Y-O-U and next thing you know people will be hunting YOU down asking how they can help promote your offers!

[charleskirkland]

Why is the barrier to entry so high and hard when you are looking for big time JV’s for your product launch?

The reason the wall is so high, is not to keep you out but to keep out the people who really are not dedicated to making it work and just give up after the first try.

Even if you get turned down so what, now you know what doesn’t work so you can find something that will work.


Will Haimerl

Building relationships is the big key to getting JV. We do business with people we know like and trust.

Also because there are plenty of solid product out there to chose from. If I have 2 solid products that I can promote, I would promote the one that I already have a relationship with the owner.


Like Chris Vendilli & Luke Parker both talk about. They did there first site and both of them are much better for it. Now they are moving on to bigger and better JV deals in the future.

Michael Copeland said it best “start thinking like the CEO of your business and treat others with honor and respect!”

WOW, this is one of the first steps to success.


Tony Germana is right about his post. It is about developing relationships with others.

He is a great example from “Think & Grow Rich” by Napoleon Hill
The first chapter is about a how Edwin C Barnes wanted to do a JV with Thomas Edison and how long it took him to do that. That is what inspired me to do my first JV

This is the first time I have ever told this story about my first offline JV that I had. It was one of my goals to be a syndicated home designer, so I sent a large collection for my plans to all the books and magazines and I waited for them to send me a contract.

I knew my plans were better then most of the ones they had so I was sure they would rush me a signed contract.

Instead I got a bunch of Dear John letters about not being right for the target market. I was crushed but I was not going to take NO as my answer.

So I took my 10 best selling plans and had my attorney sign over the US copyright to the largest house plan publisher in the world. I then sent them10 of the best plans, artwork, graphic, and the signed over copyright to the VP of sales.

My letter was simply, I was given them the plans and copyrights so they could sell all the plans and keep 100% of it. I only asked them to call me when they start selling so I can sign a contract for syndication and send them about 84 other plan that I have.

I got a call from the VP the next day to see if I was crazy or insane. We talked about 2 hours and hit it off, the next day FedEx dropped of my contract. I worked hard at building the first relationship and it payed off.

I never gave up.

Alex Goad’s post is worth it’s weight in GOLD. That was a great post and one that I know I will print out and post next to my computer.

Thanks
Charles Kirkland

[Garland Coulson]

My approach with JVs has been to focus on win-win-win.

1. The project must be a win for my JV partner.
2. The products offered must be of great value (a win) for any of our respective subscribers who purchase.
3. The project must be a win for me.

Too many people want me to promote their new ebook which as no track record and is no different from the 1,000s of other ebooks out there.

Instead, I work only with JV partners who have a list of their own and who are willing to promote my Free Traffic Bar to their members if I provide them with advertising access to my 20,130+ members. I provide them with strong bonuses to offer and I have spent extra money developing a coupon system that automates the bonus system so our partners and ourselves don't have to tie up extra time dealing with the bonuses.

This approach has been VERY successful and I pay out $1,000s of dollars each month to happy affiliate/JV partners.

I also focus on ongoing promotions rather than short term. I prefer to work with partners where we will be providing bonuses on an ongoing basis for their various sites/projects rather than a one shot deal.

My pet peeve? Parters who give me a couple of days notice and expect me to be able to get a broadcast out to my list. No time to review the products or to build it into our downline builder and internal offer system, so I usually just pass on the short term ones.

[Mike Merz]

... which is just another reason why you should work on your product/self brand, and your business, overall ... first, and then start with serious Online Business folk at your level to co promote with for leverage. As you grow, your circle will expand and rise.

In regards to getting partners on board for a launch, you need at 4 - 6 weeks advanced notice to beta test your product, sales copy, and systems, introduce yourself to your partners and get feedback, allow plenty of time for large list owners to schedule mailings, and fine tune everything so your product and marketing system is ready for launch day ... IMHO.

Thanks for the follow up, Dan, Ralf, Chris, Charles, and Garland.

Best,

Mike

[Fidens Felix]

... which is just another reason why you should work on your product/self brand, and your business, overall ... first, and then start with serious Online Business folk at your level to co promote with for leverage. As you grow, your circle will expand and rise.


This reminds me of a book by Stephen Covey: 7 Habits Of Highly Effective People.

You must start from yourself before you can give effect to other people.

Thus, as Mike said, you have to brand yourself, your product and your business
before you can start influence others.

Well said!

Fidens Felix

[Chris Lockwood]

Live events are a good way to meet people who could be potential partners or affiliates, and I don't mean just the speakers, but regular attendees, too.


> It burns me sometimes to see that people will quickly JV with someone simply because they have a name dispite the fact that the product stinks or is not all that, and will thumb their nose at someone else simply because they don't have a name, but they have a great product.

Are they really thumbing their noses, or just not replying to the person? A lack of a reply can often just mean the person never got your message or didn't have time to get to it or it doesn't fit their schedule or whatever. And although I feel your pain on this, you can't really blame people for promoting things from people they already know, have worked with, and/or are well known, vs. something from someone they haven't heard of.


I've been thinking lately that unless you already have a bunch of people lined up to promote your new product, it might be best to avoid using the word "launch" - I think people see that and assume they are expected to promote on a certain day or week, so if they can't fit it in their schedule then, they just pass on it, when they might have been willing to promote it a few weeks later.